Transcript of Dan Rather's interview with Ben Barnes.
True to form, the mentally ill GOP is now trying to sue CBS
for "forgery" of the incriminating documents. CBS's accusers
are truly, deeply pathetic, and I suppose this means that they
must attack the forma because the truth about Shrub's service
is irrefutably shameful.
Ben Barnes Talks
Dan Rather talks exclusively with former Texas House Speaker and
Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes.
DAN RATHER:
First of all, thank you for doing this.
BEN BARNES:
Glad to be here. Yeah.
DAN RATHER:
Let's get a little background. You were speaker of the Texas House
at age 28.
BEN BARNES:
I think it was 26, Dan.
DAN RATHER:
Twenty six. I stand corrected. What was that like?
BEN BARNES:
Well, first of all it was a long time ago. But it was fascinating,
and it was a very interesting time in which to be in Texas politics
and America politics. The negative was Vietnam. The positive was the
fact that we were doing so many things.
John Connolly was governor. Lyndon Johnson was president. A lot of
exciting things were happening. The space center was coming to
Texas. Higher education appropriations were doubling and tripling
each the legislature met. Texas was moving, and to play a small role
was very exciting for a-- particularly for a young man.
DAN RATHER:
Well, set the scene for me. At the time, what was about to develop
in Texas politics? What was in the presses -- developing?
BEN BARNES:
Well, Texas was a one party state. John Tower had gotten elected
to the United States Senate in a special election when Lyndon
Johnson became vice president. And then there was only one
Republican congressman I believe -- Congressman George Bush from the
River Oaks area of Houston.
And so that we did not have two parties. It was the beginning of
the two-party system in Texas, but Lyndon Johnson was going to be
wrestling with Vietnam. And it was gonna divide the country and it
was gonna cause a lot of problems in Texas. It was going to be a
political revolution as opposed to evolutions that normally take
place in states.
DAN RATHER:
Well, view for me who the major players were.
BEN BARNES:
Well, obviously, President Johnson, Sen. Ralph Yarborough.
DAN RATHER:
Democrat?
BEN BARNES:
A Democrat. John Connolly-- a Democrat governor. Preston Smith,
the Democratic lieutenant governor. All of our state office holders
were Democrats. And there was only one Republican in the state
Senate when I presided over the Senate as lieutenant governor, and I
think maybe two or three Republicans were in the house when I was
speaker.
DAN RATHER:
And George Bush, now we know called George Bush I, was a
Republican congressman?
BEN BARNES:
Yes, he was.
DAN RATHER:
And where did you fit in?
BEN BARNES:
Well, I'm not too sure, that I was just very glad to be at the
party, as young as I was. And having been elected and having the
opportunity to serve at the time. And then to be elected lieutenant
governor, there's only been three people that have taken the trip
from one side of the capitol to the other and that was a great
honor. But I don't know exactly where I fit in. I fit in as a person
who was very, very interested and excited about the great things
that I think we were doing for Texas.
DAN RATHER:
Well, would you argue if I said this was sort of the pecking order
in the Democratic party's power structure? Of course, President
Johnson was president. John Connolly, governor. Then Preston Smith,
current governor Preston Smith as lieutenant governor. That would be
probably the pecking order. And as speaker of the house, you fit in
somewhere below that?
BEN BARNES:
Yes, that's correct.
DAN RATHER:
All right. Now, you became lieutenant governor when?
BEN BARNES:
In 1969. I was elected in 1968.
DAN RATHER:
And the lieutenant governor has more power than most lieutenant
governors in Texas. For example, he controls the agenda in the State
Senate?
BEN BARNES:
Yes. And the speaker and the lieutenant governor really control
the purse strings of Texas. Our office of governor is a relatively
weak office. Our constitution was written at the conclusion of the
Civil War. And a Democratic legislature wrote a new constitution and
wrote the governor of Texas-- the office of the governor of Texas
into a relatively weak position.
DAN RATHER:
We had the draft. What was called Universal Military Training at
that time. How did that fit into the picture and the tumultuous
events surrounding the Vietnam War?
BEN BARNES:
I was a supporter of President Johnson's position on the Vietnam
War and I traveled through the United States passing resolutions at
various organizations that I was a member of and supporting his
position on Vietnam. As did almost all of the elected officials in
Texas.
It was a very turbulent time, Dan. It-- young people were taking
to the streets. President Johnson spoke on an event on the
University of Texas campus. And there were some 2,000-3,000 students
and other people in the streets. And interrupted the president's
speech. And it was really-- almost unsafe for President and Mrs.
Johnson to return to their car that night and for us all to depart
that building. It's hard for people that weren't alive at that time
to understand the animosity and the outright-- despising, even as
far as hate, that existed in people that were opposed to war.
DAN RATHER:
And the attitude toward the draft by this time had become what?
BEN BARNES:
Well, it had become-- it had become very, very difficult for moms
and dads who had young men that were draft age to accept--
particularly later in the Vietnam conflict. To accept the fact that
their son or dau-- or their son-- was gonna have to go to Vietnam.
And that was not something that anybody wanted for their children to
do. Certainly not anybody that I (UNINTEL).
DAN RATHER:
You almost corrected yourself. You said son or daughter and then
you said sons because daughters are not eligible for the draft?
BEN BARNES:
They were not in that. And it's changed in the last 30 years with
women playing such an important role in our military. But not in
the '60s.
DAN RATHER:
I want to ask you to go back and tell me the story. Tell me the
whole story. Tell me the truth, the whole truth about what happened
with George W. Bush and the draft and the National Guard. Start at
the beginning. Take me right through it.
BEN BARNES:
Well, first of all I want to say that I'm not here to bring any
harm to George Bush's reputation or his career. I was contacted by
people from the very beginning of his political career when he ran
for governor, and then when he ran for president and now he's
running for re-election. I've had hundreds of phone calls of people
wanting to know the story.
And I've been quoted and misquoted. And the reason I'm here today,
I really want to tell the story. And I want to tell it one time and
get it behind us. And again it's-- this is not about George Bush's
political career.
This is about what the truth is. About the time in which I served
and the role I played. Sid Adger (PH), a friend of the Bush family,
came to see me and asked me if I would recommend George W. Bush for
the Air National Guard. And I did.
And I talked to a Gen. Rose, who was the commander of the Air
National Guard. I don't know whether my recommendation was the
absolute reason he got in the Guard. He was a Congressman's son. He
graduated from Yale. He was a person that would have been eligible.
But there was a long list of people waiting to be, or hoping to be
a candidate for the Air National Guard, and for the Army National
Guard. That was one route that young men had to go to-- or that was
available to a very special few to-- be able to avoid being drafted
and being able to avoid going to Vietnam. Although some National
Guard people later went to Vietnam.
DAN RATHER:
Sid Adger. Who is he?
BEN BARNES:
Sid Adger is a-- was an oil man.
DAN RATHER:
Sid Adger.
BEN BARNES:
He's deceased now, Dan. He was a friend of the Bush family and a
success oil man in Texas that was a friend of Bush family and a
friend of mine.
DAN RATHER:
Was he a contributor to your political campaign?
BEN BARNES:
I don't know. I would be surprised if he was not a contributor.
I've tried to make everybody a contributor to my political campaigns
in Texas that had any money. But I suspect he probably gave a small
contribution. I don't remember that. That's nearly 40-some odd years
ago now.
DAN RATHER:
What-- people such as Mr. Adger frequently gave money to political
campaigns on both sides?
BEN BARNES:
Oh, that's true in Texas. And-- and-- but you also gotta remember
that there was a Democratic side that had about 200 elected
officials and a Republican side that had two elected officials. So
it was very easy to people to get to Democrats as well as
Republicans. I think later, it may be that maybe Sid Adger might
have been a card-carrying Republican. But I don't remember what his
party affiliation was.
DAN RATHER:
When he came to see you, how did he get access to you? Did he call
you? Write you a letter?
BEN BARNES:
Oh, he just called. I was a young, ambitious office holder. I
don't think I probably turned down very many-- very few people. Or I-
- everybody got to see me that wanted to see me. I tried to make
that possible.
DAN RATHER:
So he came here to see you. Do you remember what he said?
BEN BARNES:
Well, it's been a long time ago, but he said basically, would I
help young George Bush get in the Air National Guard?
DAN RATHER:
And you said to him that you would. You could do that?
BEN BARNES:
I said that I'd be happy to call Gen. Rose, who was the commander
there at National Guard.
DAN RATHER:
Help people understand what's the relationship between -- you were
then-speaker of the House?
BEN BARNES:
Yes.
DAN RATHER:
What's the relationship between the speaker of the House and the
general of the National Guard?
BEN BARNES:
Well, I don't know that there's an automatic relationship there.
But Gen. Rose happened to be a personal friend of mine also is what--
as well as a political friend. But the National Guard is really a
branch of the state government.
While they receive federal appropriations, they still rely on the
state legislature for various and sundry legislations. So any
speaker or lieutenant governor or governor is gonna have some
influence with the national guard. And the governor of Texas
appointments the general, who is the commander of the of the
National Guard?
DAN RATHER:
It's been a long time ago, but do you remember whether you called
him or wrote him?
BEN BARNES:
No, I really don't. Whether I called him or wrote him. More than
likely I called him, but I don't think I wrote him. The Air National
Guard was in Austin, where the state capital was. And more than
likely I picked up the phone, called Gen. Rose.
DAN RATHER:
And roughly, what would you have said to him?
BEN BARNES:
Dan, I got a lot of young men from prominent families in Texas in
the National Guard. Not that I'm necessarily proud of that. As I
reflect back, particularly after I walked through the Vietnam
Memorial recently in Washington and saw the thousands of names of
the young men who lost their lives there -- it's a fact that I'm not
really proud of.
But I was a young, ambitious politician -- doing what I thought
that was acceptable, that was important to make friends. And I
recommended a lot of people for the National Guard during the
Vietnam era -- as speaker of the house and as lieutenant governor.
DAN RATHER:
And you recommended George W. Bush?
BEN BARNES:
Yes, I did.
DAN RATHER:
Had you ever met him?
BEN BARNES:
No, I had not.
DAN RATHER:
Met his father?
BEN BARNES:
I met his father. I knew his father. And his father was a fine
congressman who worked very closely with those of us in Texas who
were trying to get things done.
DAN RATHER:
And you said you did this for others. Had you done it for others
before you asked for some-- like we normally call preferential
treatment?
BEN BARNES:
I'm--
DAN RATHER:
--for President Bush?
BEN BARNES:
I'm sure that I had done it previously. I don't remember the exact
order. But I know I had done it for others, I'm certain, but-- at
that time.
DAN RATHER:
Well, I used the phrase "preferential treatment." Perhaps I
shouldn't have. Would you describe it as that? A request for
preferential treatment? Or how would you describe it?
BEN BARNES:
Oh, I would describe it as preferential treatment. There were
hundreds of names on the list of people wanting to get in the Air
National Guard or the Army National Guard. I think that would have
been a preference to anybody that didn't wanna go to Vietnam that
didn't wanna leave. We had a lot of young men that left and went to
Canada in the '60s and fled this country.
But those that could get in the Reserves or those who could get in
the National Guard meant that they could serve and get their
military training. And chances are they would not have to go to
Vietnam. The Vietnam era was different from the era now in that Air
Natio-- all National Guards and Reserve units-- have been called
into military fighting now.
DAN RATHER:
And what year was this, Ben?
BEN BARNES:
1968.
DAN RATHER:
By 1968, casualties in Vietnam were running high.
BEN BARNES:
Yeah.
DAN RATHER:
Did you or did you not think at that time, "I'm a little
uncomfortable with this." Or did you have long talks with your
conscience? A lot of our best young men were going into that green
jungle hell and dying or being maimed for life.
Did you say to yourself, "I'm a little uncomfortable with doing
this?" Or were you at that stage of your life and your political
career where you just said, "Look, this is the way business is
done." Help me understand that?
BEN BARNES:
It would be very easy for me to sit here and tell you, Dan, that I
had-- I wrestled with this and lost a lot of sleep at night. But I
wouldn't be telling you the truth. I-- very-- not eagerly, but I was
readily willing to call and get those young men into the National
Guard that were friends of mine and supporters of mine.
And I did it. Reflecting back, I'm very sorry about it. But, you
know, it happened. And it was because of my ambition, my youth, my
lack of understanding. But it happened. And it's not, as I said,
it's not something I'm necessarily proud of.
DAN RATHER:
You've thought about it a lot since then?
BEN BARNES:
I've thought about it an awful lot. And you walk through the
Vietnam memorial, particularly at night as I did-- a few months
again. And-- I tell, you'll think about it a long time.
DAN RATHER:
How do you feel about it now?
BEN BARNES:
Well, I don't think that I had any right to have the power that I
had to be able to choose who was gonna go to Vietnam and who was not
gonna go to Vietnam. That's a power. In some instances when I looked
at those names, of-- maybe of-- of determining life or death. And
that's not a power that I wanna have.
DAN RATHER:
Too strong or not to say that you're ashamed of it now?
BEN BARNES:
Oh, I think that would be a-- somewhat of an appropriate thing.
I'm very, very sorry.
DAN RATHER:
Okay. Did George Bush Sr. call you to thank you or write you to
thank you?
BEN BARNES:
I've been asked that question many times and I don't think that he
called me. And newspaper reporters have gone through my-- the
archives and looked for letters. I-- it'd be impossible for me to
remember if I'd gotten a letter.
Or it could-- if-- at that time that George-- that President Bush
appeared on the scene, that was 32 years at that time. Now, it's
almost been 42 years. To remember would have been difficult. But I
think everyone has ascertained that there's-- no such letter exists.
And I don't remember him calling me or running into me and saying
thank you.
DAN RATHER:
Anytime since that time? It's been a long time and you've crossed
paths any number of times since then?
BEN BARNES:
Well, we've kind of crossed paths. He's never said thank you for
that. I mean we've had very warm conversations. But, you know, a lot
of time-- a lot of time has passed. It's not-- sometimes people
don't think if it-- 20 or 30 years has gone by that they even
remember that they need to say thank you.
DAN RATHER:
OK. What was your relationship with the Bush family at that time
you made this request for the National Guard to make a place for
George W. Bush? Did you know the family well? Did you know the
father well?
BEN BARNES:
I knew the father. I didn't know him well. He was a congressman.
If people are historians or remember history that far back in Texas,
that were people that were speculating that in 1970, George Bush was
gonna run for the Senate.
And there were people speculating that I was gonna run for the
Senate in 1970. I didn't run and Lloyd Bentsen did run. And he
defeated Sen. Yarborough in the primary. And then he ran and
defeated President Bush in the-- President Bush I, as you correctly
said.
President Bush I in the general election. So there was a
possibility at that time that I was making that decision that he and-
- that his father and I might have been even running against one
another for the Senate. But I don't know that that was a part of my
thought process when I agreed to do the recommendation for Sid
Adger.
DAN RATHER:
You say it's been a long time ago. It's inside Texas politics. But
what an irony, you were up and coming, fair to say a rising star in
the Democratic party, with a -- not only a Democratic president, but
a fellow Texas president. Talk of you possibility running for a
Senate seat in 1970.
George Bush won. Was a Republican congressman, a rarity in Texas,
fair to say, at that time,who was thinking of running in 1970. And
at that time, you used your influence to help get his son his place
in the National Guard, it was being pretty well speculated you might
be running against George Bush the first in 1970?
BEN BARNES:
Well, that was probably a correct assumption. If I had to run, I
don't think Sen. Bentsen would have run. And that-- and so--
politics might have-- the history might have been a little
different.
But remember that in Texas we really still had just one party. And
the fact that I helped a Republican, that's that was not out of the
ordinary because everybody that was in office -- was very interested
in having all of the people of Texas to vote for them. Particularly
the business community. Particularly the people that were prone to
be Republican . So, that was-- that was not anything unusual.
DAN RATHER:
Well, fair or unfair to say that George Bush I had some power
himself. He was a Republican congressman and seen as a rising star
of his party. Representing a very wealthy district in the largest
county in the state in terms of population.
BEN BARNES:
That's correct. He was well known and well liked.
DAN RATHER:
Let me get back to the facts of the matter. By calling the head of
the Texas National Guard and recommending George W. Bush for one of
his coveted places, did it or not give him an advantage over
somebody else who was applying for one of those spots?
BEN BARNES:
Well, I would say that being the son of a congressman, and from
Texas, and having a recommendation by my state official, certainly
that would give a person-- a leg you.
DAN RATHER:
When you made that call, was there any doubt in your mind that he
probably would get the spot?
BEN BARNES:
I don't really remember, but I would think that I was not
surprised when I learned that he'd gotten in the Air National Guard.
And I don't remember when I learned and at what time it-- and what
stage of the process that I even learned-- that he may have been in
the Guard before I ever was told that he'd gotten the position.
DAN RATHER:
By the way, I asked you whether his father ever thanked you or
not. You said you have no recollection of him ever doing that. Don't
think he did. Did George W. Bush himself, even as an aside or
perhaps with some humor, say to you, "We appreciate what you did?"
BEN BARNES:
Well, he dropped me a note saying that he appreciated-- my memory
being-- that is his father, that we'd never talked about it. He had
no idea-- probably as a 22-year-old or 21-year-old graduate of Yale
what was happening-- as far as his application was concerned. And he
said that he was pleased that I was able to remember for a mutual
friend of ours-- how the process had worked.
DAN RATHER:
When was that? I mean the last five years, 10 years?
(OVERTALK)
BEN BARNES:
Oh, that was in 19-- it was-- after he'd gotten elected governor.
DAN RATHER:
Well, in at least one and I think several of the authorized
biographies of President Bush, it's been said that his deal was he--
and I quote from the book, "Just happened to get one of these
spots." Did anybody just happen to get one of these spots in the Air
National Guard?
BEN BARNES:
I can't answer that with any real certainty, Dan. I would be
somewhat surprised if a lot of people got in the Guard, particularly
during the late '60s when Vietnam was at the really height of its
intensity. It-- 'cause there were such long lists of people and so
many people wanted to get into the Guard.
DAN RATHER:
You haven't talked about this in a very long time. Why?
BEN BARNES:
Well, I really don't believe in the politics of gotcha. I really
don't appreciate what's happening today in the American politics. I
really didn't think that what happened that long ago had a lot to do
with a man's ambition to be governor or even later to be president.
I-- that's-- that's not my nature to get involved and wanna be
political. And that's not why I'm here today. I really think that
politics have gone the wrong direction rather than right direction
in this country. And that's another thing that I'm not very proud
of. I'm not real proud of our political system today.
DAN RATHER:
I wanna follow up on that. But first, did anybody ever ask you,
let me put it directly, to keep your mouth shut?
BEN BARNES:
Oh, well, I've been encouraged to be quiet-- by-- starting with--
be quiet about a lot of things. My wife encourages me to be quiet a
lot about a lot of things. But no, there's obviously a lot of people
that don't want this issue discussed. And some people that do want
it discussed.
But I'm not-- I-- again, I wanna repeat, I'm not here because of
people's telling me that I should talk about it or that people are
telling me that I shouldn't talk about it. I'm here because I feel
that I needed to set the record straight.
DAN RATHER:
And you thought you needed to set the record straight because?
BEN BARNES:
Because I think it was wrong what I did. And it was wrong what
happened. But it's been talked about and been speculated on by so
many different people in several, different ways. And I really
wanted the American people to know exactly what the facts were.
DAN RATHER:
You said because it was wrong. What was wrong with it?
BEN BARNES:
Well, I think the system was wrong. That a young 28-year-old or 29-
year-old speaker of the House could pick up the phone and call a
general, and say, "I want so-and-so in the National Guard." And some
of the time it happened.
DAN RATHER:
When I asked if anybody that-- ask you or indicated to you to keep
your mouth shut, going back through the '70s, '80s, and '90s,
anybody say to you, "Why don't you just forget that?" Or did anybody
say to you, "You better not say anything about that?
BEN BARNES:
Well, I don't really wanna talk about what people said or what
they didn't say. You-- in politics-- in this partisan days,
everybody wants to have an opinion and everybody -- you can get
advice in the barbershop on whether you oughta talk about something
or not. So I've had a lot of advice. But I'm following my own
conscience today.
DAN RATHER:
You said, I'm gonna come back to what you said was the current
atmosphere in American politics. How would you describe that
atmosphere?
BEN BARNES:
I think the country is probably more divided today then it's been
since the Civil War. I certainly was not alive, although some people
probably think I was alive at the conclusion of the Civil War. So I
wasn't there firsthand.
But I believe that this country is very severely divided. Families
are divided. Friends are divided. Communities are divided. Churches,
schools. It's not healthy.
I have a letter in my possession from my grandfather who wrote to
my uncle who was on Iwo Jima. And in the first paragraph, he talks
about the crops are in the ground. We've had ground rain. He's
trying to write a kind of letter to cheer my uncle up. But he says
in the next paragraph that, "I'm very concerned about the fact that
the religious right in this country--" and he talked about a person
that was on the radio that was talking about the religion and
politics had to mix. And that we should get involved because God was
telling us to do this. And God was telling us to do that.
And I'm like-- my grandfather in 1943 speculated that he was very
concerned because he thought it was very important in this country
to keep the separation between church and state. And I believe that
very strongly also.
DAN RATHER:
Did or did not-- what's become known as the "swift boat negative
campaign ad attacks" on Sen. Kerry influence your decision to come
forward in any way?
BEN BARNES:
No, I've-- matter of fact the speech that I made-- about four or
five months again when I talked about the seein'-- being-- visitin'
the Vietnam memorial and talking about the fact that I've, that I
was not proud of what I've done. That was five-- four or five months
before the swift boats. So that's not what caused me to come
forward.
DAN RATHER:
This-- an excerpt from that talk is what's been on the Internet
here--
BEN BARNES:
Yes (UNINTEL).
DAN RATHER:
--for a little while.
BEN BARNES:
Yes.
DAN RATHER:
I wanna come back to some of the characters involved in (UNINTEL)
profile. Gen. Rose. Did Gen. Rose have the make-or-break decision on
who went in the Air National Guard?
BEN BARNES:
Yes, he was commanding general.
DAN RATHER:
That's the person you called to--
BEN BARNES:
Yes.
DAN RATHER:
--put in a word for George W. Bush. What kind of person was Gen.
Rose? Was he political? Apolitical? Was he connected? If so, how?
BEN BARNES:
Well, I would describe him as a very able, military commander. And
I'm not in the position to be very judgmental about a (UNINTEL) is
good. But he seemed to be very serious about his duties and take it
very seriously.
He was a very personal fella. He, the Rose family. He and his two
sons and wife were all wonderful people. And Gen. Rose is deceased
now. But I had very high regard for him.
DAN RATHER:
Was he a Democrat or Republican?
BEN BARNES:
Oh, he was a general.
DAN RATHER:
Politically connected? Did he know the Bushs? Did he know the
Johnsons? Connollys?
BEN BARNES:
Well, he knew he had to know Gov. Connolly because Gov. Connolly
was in office and he was there at St. General. I'm sure he knew--
President Johnson, being from Texas. I don't know whether he knew
Congressman Bush or not. I've never discussed it with him.
DAN RATHER:
Did you know the man Gen. Stout, who was in the direct line of
command?
BEN BARNES:
Yes. I met Gen. Stout.
DAN RATHER:
Who was he and what was he like?
BEN BARNES:
Well, he was an assistant. I guess he-- maybe he had the title of--
of assistant-- Air (UNINTEL) General. And he was-- the assistant to
Gen. Rose. I didn't ever have a lot of contact with Gen. Stout. So I
had no personal relationship with him.
DAN RATHER:
I've been told that he was well connected in the Houston community
and with the Bushs. Do you know that to be a fact?
BEN BARNES:
No, I don't have any knowledge of that.
DAN RATHER:
Let me come back to what would have been the consequences if you
had not put in a word for George W. Bush?
BEN BARNES:
Well, I don't think there would have been any consequences. Sid
Adger might not have been happy with me. But I didn't -- I never
thought-- never even thought about what the consequences would have
been if I hadn't made a recommendation.
DAN RATHER:
Did he have any power to punish you in any way other than to
say, "Well, Ben Barnes is not a good fellow because he didn't do
what I told him to do?"
BEN BARNES:
Oh, I-- probably not. But, you know, as a young office holder and
an ambitious young man, you never really thought about the
consequences if you didn't do something. You were all looking for
something else to do to make some more people happy. And that would
have been what was going through my mind.
DAN RATHER:
Some people are going to ask, "Well, was this something unique to
Texas? This kind of political influence in getting these National
Guard slots?" Do you have any recollection? Do you have any
information or knowledge of whether this happened in other states?
Or was it something that just happened in Texas?
BEN BARNES:
Dan, I have no first hand knowledge. But I knew other speakers and
other presidents of the Senate and I have, just from very vague
memory-- some discussions that I had with them that they were
working with their National Guards. Getting people in during the
Vietnam conflict. So I'm sure that it was not something that's
unique just to Texas.
Read Part II of the transcript.
DAN RATHER:
Did you get a number of people, deferments of this sort, if we can
call it that, or into the Guard? Or was this a rare case?
BEN BARNES:
There were several, Dan. There were a number. Not a lot. But there
were several young men that I got into the Guard -- I helped get
into the Guard.
DAN RATHER:
And is there a profile for all those people that you helped get in
a Guard? A general profile?
BEN BARNES:
Probably. Maybe with with one or two exceptions. But probably a
general profile. They were somebody that was-- that was known, or
known to me, or friends, or political supporters.
DAN RATHER:
Well, here's the point. Was this or was this not something pretty
special? Or were you kind of running your own, "Get out of the
service" operation, as house speaker?
BEN BARNES:
Oh, no. It was something that was very special. I mean, and again,
it's something that I'm not very proud of. That's one of the reasons
I'm here.
DAN RATHER:
Uh-huh (AFFIRM). And I want to move on. So, it was -- these were
special cases. It wasn't something you did by the dozens of
hundreds?
BEN BARNES:
No.
DAN RATHER:
You're a Democrat. Lifelong Democrat. You're a supporter of John
Kerry. Fair to say that you're in Sen. Kerry's inner circle?
BEN BARNES:
I don't know that I'm in his inner circle. I know I'm a supporter
of Sen. Kerry. And I've supported him from the very first.
DAN RATHER:
You know that there are people who seeing this are going to
say, "Well, Ben Barnes came forward now because he wants to help
Sen. Kerry's campaign." How do you answer that?
BEN BARNES:
Well, I've been helping Sen. Kerry's campaign from the first day
announced. And when I started being quoted on the Internet, and
being quoted other places, some as I said, correctly, or-- and other
times, incorrectly, I just thought it was time for me to once and
for all, there was just too much speculation. There are too many
people that are putting words in my mouth.
Too many things that were being said that were wrong. I decided
that I wanted to set the record set. And I wanted to let the
American people know exactly what happened.
DAN RATHER:
I know that you must have said to yourself before you came here
for this interview, "Boy, there's one thing. If I don't get across
anything else, there's one thing more than any other I want to get
across in this 60 Minutes interview." And if you were saying that to
yourself, I want to give you an opportunity now to make sure that
you've said what you came to say, how you intended to say it.
BEN BARNES:
I came to say, what I've attempted to say exactly what the facts
were in 1968, and what I did, and what I did not do. I did not come
here to play havoc with Gov. Bush, with President Bush's
presidential campaign. I did not come here to do anything personal
against President Bush.
This is not-- I'm not here as a Kerry surrogate. I'm here as a
person who served our state, and who made decisions. Some right
decisions, and some wrong decisions. But I wanted to let everyone
know exactly what the facts were back in-- in that year of some 40
years ago.
DAN RATHER:
And review for me quickly now -- checklist of what you consider to
be the most important facts about your involvement with getting
George W. Bush into the National Guard.
BEN BARNES:
Well, Sid Adger, and not the Bush family came to see me, to ask me
to get-- President Bush-- George W. Bush into the National Guard,
which I made the call to Gen. Rose. And he was accepted. Whether he
was accepted solely because of my call, I do not know. As we have
discussed, he was the son of a very prominent Congressman from
Texas.
And I don't know what happened after he got in the Guard. I don't
know what happened-- from really in his life, from 1960-- 8 until--
when he surfaced in Texas as the owner of the -- one of the owners
of the Texas Rangers baseball team, and then came back, and ran for
governor. And that's when our paths crossed again.
DAN RATHER:
Did you get any reports on how he was doing in the National Guard?
BEN BARNES:
No. I didn't get any reports.
DAN RATHER:
Nobody said whether he's doing a good job, or bad job? You just
never heard anything?
BEN BARNES:
I never heard anything. And I don't think I ever heard a report on
any -- from any of the young people that I got in the International
Guard. But that was a long time ago.
DAN RATHER:
Uh-huh (AFFIRM). You (UNINTEL PHRASE) in politics, to say the
least. Were you surprised when accusations, and I underscore the
word, "Accusations," that George W. Bush didn't complete his
commitment, his six-year commitment to service? Were you surprised
to hear those accusations?
BEN BARNES:
No, I was surprised to hear.
DAN RATHER:
Why?
BEN BARNES:
Well, you know, I think that I didn't know him. I knew his family.
And I have tremendous respect for his father -- for his father's
military record, and for his service -- and the various incendiary
positions he'd served our country. I have-- I had tremendous respect
for the Bush family. And so -- I-- was surprised to hear that.
DAN RATHER:
Well, George Bush I, if we can call him that, President George
Bush I had an exemplary war record. Combat zone, hero of World War
II. When the request came to get his son a privileged, a special
place, were you surprised at that?
BEN BARNES:
Dan, to be very honest, I don't think that I really was familiar
with President Bush's -- I's military record when Sid Adger came to
my office. It's not something I thought about. I respected President
Bush as a congressman, President Bush I as a congressman. I don't
think I-- or my memory does not -- does not even allow me to
remember that-- what his military record was at that time.
DAN RATHER:
And you may not even have known what his military--
BEN BARNES:
And I-- no, not-- not a well-- well not have read his biographical
on that issue.
DAN RATHER:
Yeah. Is there anything that you wanted to say coming in here that
you haven't said about this?
BEN BARNES:
No. I think we've said-- everything that I've wanted to get said
today.
DAN RATHER:
What question haven't I asked you that I should have asked?
BEN BARNES:
Well, you could have asked me about how much younger I was than
you. But I don't think you were gonna ask me that.
DAN RATHER:
Well, let me ask you this. It may not be a question you think that
I should have asked you, but are you concerned about possible
retribution? You're in business now. You make your living in
business. Is there fearful of retribution in any way, shape or form?
BEN BARNES:
Oh, I've got a lot of faith in this country. I didn't come here
for political reasons. And I hope that I don't-- I hope I'll not be
punished politically or economically for my presence here today.
That's not what motivated me. And I hope that's not what motivates
people that disagree with me about the presidential race.
DAN RATHER:
Well, I want to keep you just a minute longer to come back to
something you said earlier, which was about you're disappointed in
the atmosphere in which the presidential campaign is being raced.
You've been around politics a long time. You've seen the best of it.
You've seen the worst of it. You've seen the hard to tell part of
it. But you've been through a lot of rough stuff, on both sides,
Democrat and Republican. In your experience, has there ever been a
time when it was as rough and nasty to run for public office as it
is today?
BEN BARNES:
I've never seen anything quite like it. It was not like this in
2000. It's a different atmosphere in 2004. 1968, when I helped the
president-- Vice President Humphrey run for reelection, he was
running-- with the Vietnam around his neck.
We'd had a convention in Chicago where people had taken to the
streets, and tried to keep a convention from being held. And Mayor
Daley had to use tear gas to dispel people, where people could even
get back in the hotels, and get into the convention center. And I
thought that was a moment that I had lived, that I would never see
again. But while people are not necessarily in the streets, the
personal animosities that exist, and how personal this campaign is,
is something that I think is very unhealthy for America.
DAN RATHER:
Ben Barnes, I thank you.
BEN BARNES:
Thank you, Dan.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main642060.shtml
Liberal Repercussion
mercredi, septembre 15, 2004
WOOO!! Got the tickets, and can't wait
THIRD COAST ACTIVIST RESOURCE CENTER PRESENTS
HIJACKING CATASTROPHE
9/11, FEAR & THE SELLING OF THE AMERICAN EMPIRE
( D. Jeremy Earp & Sally Jhut video, unrated)
Hijacking Catastrophe: 9/11, Fear & the Selling of American Empire examines how a radical fringe of the Republican Party has used the trauma of the 9/11 terror attacks to advance a pre-existing agenda to radically transform American foreign policy while rolling back civil liberties and social programs at home.
The documentary places the Bush Administration's false justifications for war in Iraq within the larger context of a two-decade struggle by neoconservatives to dramatically increase military spending in the wake of the Cold War, and to expand American power globally by means of military force. At the same time, the documentary argues that the Bush Administration has sold this radical and controversial plan for aggressive American military intervention by deliberately manipulating intelligence, political imagery, and the fears of the American people after 9/11.
Narrated by Julian Bond, Hijacking Catastrophe features interviews with more than twenty prominent political observers, including Pentagon whistleblower Lt. Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, who witnessed first-hand how the Bush Administration set up a sophisticated propaganda operation to link the anxieties generated by 9/11 to a pre-existing foreign policy agenda that included a preemptive war on Iraq. Joining Kwiatkowski in a wide-ranging, accessible, and ultimately empowering analysis of American foreign policy, media manipulation, and their global and domestic implications, are former Chief UN Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter, former Pentagon analyst Daniel Ellsberg, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Jody Williams, author Norman Mailer, MIT professor Noam Chomsky, Code Pink founder Medea Benjamin, defense policy analyst William Hartung, author Chalmers Johnson, and Army Special Forces Master Sergeant Stan Goff (Ret.).
At its core, the film places the deceptions of the Bush Administration within the larger frame of questions seldom posed in the mainstream: What, exactly, is the agenda that drove the administration's pre-war deceptions? How is 9/11 being used to sell this agenda? And what are the stakes for America, Americans, and the world if this agenda succeeds in being fully implemented during a second Bush term?
mardi, septembre 14, 2004
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Liberal [n.] a person who favors of political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties [adj.] broad-minded [adj.] tolerant of change; not bound by authoritariamism, orthodoxy or tradition [adj.] given or giving freely Repercussion [n.] a remote or indirect consequence of some action [n.] a movement back from an impact
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